HighIntensity.net View Mike Mentzer Bodybuilding Topic

Today I lost 5 reps on my OHP and 9 reps on my Bench Press compared to the workout I did THREE days ago ! That′s incredible how overtraining emerged so fast. In the SAME workout I did triceps extension and added 1kg compared to the last workout and also gained on lateral raises. Now I′m sure overtraining is NERVOUS in nature and not muscular. I overtrain so easily with big compounds… it′s why I′m doing more isolation exercises but only few isolation exercises are good (high recruitment) !

If I do compounds and train hard (to failure and or beyond) I overtrain very fast even with "low frequency" (1/7-10 days) and there is no way I can maintain an optimal frequency for muscles (2x per week according to studies) for more than a few weeks.

I tend to believe ′hardgainers′ (people with low NERVOUS recovery ability) shouldn′t train too hard and really look at the exercises they do. For example I could recover much faster than 10 sets of a few isolation exercises than one set to failure of Deadlift or worst a 1RM on deadlift.

People cant accept the fact that high intensity training to failure can burn you as fast as high volume training and in some cases even faster.Also I believe that ′hardgainers′ – as you define them, are not minority.ALSO if you do some research you will see studies showing that working hard(to failure) on compounds tends to give results for 2-3 weeks.Thats why powerlifters like to change their compund exercises so much.

There is an phrase the "old time" lifters used to use called "training to close to nerve". It has been resurrected in some circles today as "training on the nerve". Whatever your choice, when you train to failure, you affect your entire infrastructure involved in recovery from your hormonal to nervous systems. "Compound" exercises–squat, deadlift–utilize a far higher percentage of your musculature which then requires more of your "support systems"–hormonal, nervous–etc. to perform the lift, provide recovery, etc. The more muscles you use when training to failure, the bigger the affect on your nervous system, etc., and the longer it will take for recovery. No different than going for an easy sprint on the track vs. all out. The hard sprint will require more recovery time to restore ATP, muscle glycogen, etc.

Isolation exercises are a misnomer…for example, a pec dec does not "isolate" the chest muscles as you are still using the shoulder muscles, your core to stabilize the upper body, your biceps will tighten as you move the device arms, etc.

But, powerlifters and Olympic lifters don′t go to failure for this reason. They keep their reps between 3 – 5 but never go near failure or their one rep max so they can stay fresh and see faster recovery. In fact, you′ll see powerlifting routines where the set/rep/poundage schemes or ladders are very small, incremental steps for 12 weeks, but, allow for cycling backwards. Eg the powerlifter may go through a periodization cycle where he hits 3 x 3 on a 450lb bench press, but, then he′ll drop down and restart the cycle with a higher baseline.

http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/849
http://www.geocities.com/rp800/

500lbJones,

However, the weak links are more of an issue with compound exercises than single-joint movements. And anyhow, most of the people on this forum are more focused on bodybuilding, not powerlifting, where compound exercise is the focus.

Andy

Andy,

Understood re the powerlifting…just wanted to clarify their training methods.

And I′d have to disagree on the weak links, per se. They′d apply on any exercise. If you have a weak rotator cuff, using a pec dec or performing a set of flies would be just as difficult as a bench press. And the relative proportion of weight of the compound to the single joint exercise (vs. absolute) would make both a problem for the trainee.